Now, I bring to you part two of the “Iwata Asks (Business Trip Edition)”.
This time, I have asked five of our younger development staff to take part in the interview. Like our readers, I am also looking forward to what we’re going to hear from them.
Now, let’s begin by asking you to introduce yourselves.

My name is Shimizu, and I’m from EAD Tokyo. My main responsibility was to work on Mario’s movements and animation.

Hi, I’m Aoyagi from EAD Tokyo. For this Mario game, I made the gravity system, and I was also responsible for the programming of the enemies and the bosses.

Hello, I am Shirai of EAD Tokyo. My work was similar to that of Hayashida-san, in the sense that I was also responsible for the stage design, but I was more in charge of the details. I put all the stage designs together one piece at a time, and my job was to fine-tune them so that the overall design would be balanced.

My name is Motokura, and I am also from EAD Tokyo. I worked on managing the character designs. Basically, I worked on anything that had to do with the characters, like the player characters, the bosses and the objects.

Well, the first thing I would like to ask all of you is for how many of you was this the first Mario game that you were involved with?

(Raising his hand) I’m the only one! (laughs)

And the other four had worked on previous Mario games, like Super Mario Sunshine. Aoyagi-san, what was your impression working on a Mario game for the first time?

Nobody would question that Mario games are the flagship titles of Nintendo. But at first, the fact that I was actually involved in making a Mario game didn’t really sink in. I felt like “Me? Making a Mario game?” (laughs) So I tried to always think about what defined a Mario game.

There is this tradition in the Zelda team where during development, the staff would discuss with each other continuously what the “Essence of Zelda” was.

On the other hand, I haven’t really heard the staff in the Mario team talking to each other about the “Essence of Mario”. So as someone who had previous experience with Mario, Hayashida-san, what do you think defines the “Essence of Mario”?

From what I had heard from (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san, the “Essence of Mario” and the “Essence of Zelda” aren’t at all different from each other; the only thing different is the general direction of each game. When I heard that, I was really shocked! (laughs)

In the Zelda Volume of the original Iwata Asks interviews¹, Miyamoto-san did say something like that.

What constantly came up during my discussions with Koizumi-san, the director, was how it was important for a Mario game to feel good to the touch while you are playing the game.
I believe the "Essence of Mario" is that a Mario game should always be a "new toy" - that it should feel both pleasant and responsive. I also think that Mario is a title that represents video games in general. In making a new Mario, it’s release is highly anticipated by our customers, so I felt that we had to keep the tradition of Mario games, yet at the same time, we had to bring in new ways to play in the game. Due to this, you feel pressure to resolve a whole variety of issues while working on a title like this.

There are many traditions that you had to remain faithful to, while at the same time you had to bring in new ideas. It must have been difficult trying to find the perfect balance between the two.
Shimizu-san, as the person involved with Mario’s movements, what do you think?

I think you’re not able to talk about a Mario game without discussing jumping.
You write all kinds of programs when making a game, but the most difficult of them all is when it has to do with Mario’s jumps. In this game, there were more than ten ways for Mario to jump, and it changes from one form to another depending on the way you control the game. So, I truly think the heart of this game lies in the jumping.

Shirai-san, how about you? You were responsible for the stage design.

When I first played Super Mario Bros., I was still in the 4th grade of elementary school. It was so much fun; I remember myself playing using only my instinct, not thinking about anything at all. As I played, many obstacles and enemies kept appearing one after the other, and when I thought that surely I couldn't get past this part...

You heard a voice, "Come on, one more time!" like the coach in gym class, and you kept on going and going! (laughs)

Exactly! (laughs)
I wanted the people who would be playing this game to experience that same urge to keep trying it over and over again. I felt this was a game where it was extremely important to find an ideal balance in its difficulty level, a balance that the players will find comfortable in the end. The player can work out what they need to do in order to clear the level, but they will have a rather difficult time trying to perform the actions needed. It will take them several attempts until they are able to clear it.

I think that is what the “Essence of Mario” is.
You know what you need to be doing, but as you play, you happen to press a bit too hard with your thumb and make a mistake, but somehow you know that it’s really your fault, and not the game’s. Thinking that way, it makes you want to try it another time.

I understand that feeling well! (laughs)
Mario games somehow make the players think when things didn’t go as they wanted that they're the ones at fault, and not the people that made the game. Motokura-san, what do you think as the designer?

Speaking from a designer’s point of view, I had been told by Miyamoto-san that a design “had to be functional”. Designers tend to start by designing how the characters look, but according to Miyamoto-san, if you do that you will “lose sight of its function”.

In some Mario games, turtles that clearly look like they'll hurt you if you step on them appear in-game. Is that the kind of functional design you mean?

Right, so while I worked on the designs, I was always considering things like putting spikes on enemies like that.

I originally had this image inside my head of a character that I thought was "Mario". However, when I tried to draw Mario according to what I had in mind, it just didn't look right. I tried to combine characters that showed up in the previous games of the series but they didn’t look right, either. So I decided to start by learning the character's functions, closely paying attention to the new character concepts. It became much easier to draw when I tried it from that direction. Also, it may seem strange for me to say this as the person designing them, but there's a side to the enemy characters where they exist just to be defeated by Mario.

These enemies must also be designed according to which stage they would appear in. No matter how well-designed an enemy character could be, they will look out of place if they do not go well with their surroundings. So by having the enemies placed in areas of the game that fits their design, they become more than ready to be defeated by Mario.

Mario games up to now had been known as jumping games. However, in this latest Mario, the main theme is gravity. There are stages in the shape of a sphere, and it's set in space. Just hearing about all this, one's head would probably be filled with question marks. What were your impressions when you first heard about the plans for Super Mario Galaxy?

I was very positive about it from the start. The concept of a spherical playing field had been around since the unveiling of the GameCube in the year 2000, and I always thought that this was a concept that we should take on some day.

So that is how the spin action was born. Shimizu-san, what did you think as the programmer?

For me, I felt that we would not be able to make this for technical reasons as well. I had worked on Jungle Beat before this, and seeing how we had such a difficult time making that game, which was in 2D, I was not able to see how in the world we were going to make a "Super 3D" game like this, which is another step ahead of conventional 3D games. And when the plan was approved, I knew that the programming part was going to come to me, so I felt a real sense of danger!

(laughs)

You sensed danger because you feared you would become sucked into a really nightmarish task! (laughs)

Feelings like that are extremely important. In this day and age where surprises in games are becoming few and far between, you feel like you are interacting with a completely new kind of game with Super Mario Galaxy. I think there are other benefits in a spherical playing field. Shirai-san, how about you?

Well, I knew that I was going to be responsible for the stage design, so when I first heard the plans for this game, I thought about the kinds of planets that would look great when they're floating in space. Ideas came pouring out, such as planets in the shape of ice cream and apples floating around, and being able to run around on them.

Because the game was set in space, you were able to come up with so many ideas.

So for me, like with Hayashida-san, I started off on this project with a positive impression. We were coming up with all kinds of ideas which we would note down right away, and then stick them to the wall. I think another benefit that you can only get working with a spherical-shaped world is that because you are now able to look up to the stars and see all the different planets out there, you want to travel to those planets. You are also able to discover new things about those planets when you travel to the other side of them.

I think with other games made in the past, if the player travelled from planet to planet, the scenes would have cut-out and cut-in to a completely different planet. But with Super Mario Galaxy, Mario shoots through space from one planet and lands on the new one like a gymnast, so the players can enjoy the adventure continuing seamlessly on the next planet. And with the design, it's really a title like no other, for instance with the way there are distinct planets floating around within a compact field of outer space.

A scene such as where a giant boss suddenly appears with a huge roar on a very small planet, I think really has a lot of impact.

Being able to visualise the planet where you should be going to gives you the impression that even if you just keep running around for the time being, you'll be able to get there when you need to without getting lost.

Yet, I believe there were quite a few opinions from the general public who had tested the game that made you think "So we’ve only managed to get this much across to the player?"

Yes, there were a lot of cases where we thought that.
When that happened, we rebuilt those areas, and we made Toads appear at certain places throughout the game with useful hints... But I think that was taking the easy way out! (laughs)

When you resolve an issue by using text messages, although it does constitute a solution, as a developer, you do feel that it is somehow an admission of defeat! (laughs)

Yes. That was really the last resort! (laughs)
So I had the design changed to solve some of those issues... I had the design team make it so that the players would be able to figure out what to do next by just looking at the screen.

(laughs)

That's true, when you see those spikes, you know it spells trouble for Mario! (laughs)

So you were concerned that what you were doing might be going against the general flow?

It felt like the world was moving towards more casual games. During that time, I felt like nobody would play what we were working on, a game that is geared more towards the core audience.

And how were these concerns you had put to rest?

Last year at the E3³ event which was held in the US and the Nintendo World 2006⁴, when I saw the sheer numbers of the demo TV sets that were set up just for Super Mario Galaxy, I thought "we weren't forgotten after all!"

(laughs)

There is no way that we would forget about you! (laughs)

I believe you now! (laughs)
I had worked on making the stage data for the version that we showed at E3, and I was very worried at the time about whether people who are not used to 3D games would be able to play the game well. For these people it’s hard to walk around straight in these games, and I was worried whether they would be able to walk on a spherical field, which would be something completely new to them.
Watching these people play, I made sure to eliminate those elements they were having a hard time with. But even then, I wasn’t able to completely get rid of that feeling of uncertainty.

But the customers didn't forget about you either! (laughs)

Right! (laughs) Looking at the long lines at Nintendo World, I was very happy to know that there were so many people who still wanted to play a game like Mario. On top of that, very small children, some of them about 5 years old, were having so much fun playing. I saw some of the younger elementary school kids beating a boss, and when I saw that, I felt a firm sense of conviction: "This will really work!"

So up to that point, you felt like you were stranded on a deserted island, and then at the Nintendo World event, you saw that the land continued and that actually the island had become a peninsula. Now, Shirai-san has spoken about how his uncertainties turned to conviction, but how about the rest of you?

So I finally arrived at where the E3 was being held in the US, and when I saw a huge number of people lining up for Super Mario Galaxy, my fatigue just vanished.

At E3, Super Mario Galaxy was very well received. Everyone looked like they were having so much fun playing.

In the E3 hall, Super Mario Galaxy was set up towards the back of the Nintendo booth. So I figured it would be hard to get the attendees excited about the game, because by the time the attendees had got to the Super Mario Galaxy demo, they would already have played games like Wii Sports, which was set up along the way. But it turns out that a surprising number of the attendees enjoyed the experience, and that was the time I felt a firm sense that the game would work. There are a lot of new ideas built into this game, and even though we personally felt confident about them, you are always going to feel uncertain to some extent until you see the attendees play it.

For me, back when we were experimenting with the Wii Remote, to be honest, I doubted whether you could make a game using it.

As a developer, the thought must have crossed your mind as to whether a Mario 3D action game would be possible with a Wii Remote that was to be held in one hand. The Wii Remote brings you to a whole new realm where you're not able to utilise your knowledge you had built up in previous Mario games.

But after Wii was launched and I saw how well it was being received by the public, I felt that the direction of Wii wasn't mistaken after all.

Also, another big factor that turned my uncertainty into conviction was the addition of the Co-Star mode. Among the staff members, there were times when we forgot about work, saying things like "I didn't know Co-Star mode could be so much fun!" (laughs)

Right next to where I was sitting, the staff would get together to play the Co-Star mode. They were having so much fun right next to me while I was busy with my own work, and it made me jealous! (laughs) On top of that, I was able to hear them happily talking, saying things like: "Do something with that enemy on the upper left!", and "Which way should I go?" Being able to have so much fun like that with two people was a quality that hasn’t been seen in a Mario game for some time. That felt very refreshing, and I think it has great possibilities.

Also, I would like to see boyfriends helping their girlfriends out, who may not be that good at playing video games. I think that would be a lot of fun.

It would be great if people who had only played games like Brain Training, would say "I want to control Mario" if they had somebody that was good at video games to help them out.

Right. I definitely would like people to try it!

I think that in Mario games, you have a high level of freedom as long as the controls feel good. You can fly around as Wing Mario, turn into a giant, and sometimes, even transform into a raccoon. However, this instalment of the series is particularly focused on the transforming abilities of Mario. Though Bee Mario seems almost like cheating to me! (laughs)

(laughs)

According to the feedback from the play testers, Bee Mario is especially popular with women.

Actually, there was a time once when Bee Mario looked nothing like the way he looks now. Nobody liked that design at all, and everyone came up to me and complained "This isn't Mario!" (laughs)

In the end, we made it so that that you can transform into Bee Mario using a certain item, but at first, the game was designed so that Mario would be turned into Bee Mario by a curse. Mario would get cursed and be transformed into a bee against his will, and on top of that, his actions would be limited. It was designed so that the players would want to hurry and get rid of the curse.

I think that was a good change in direction! (laughs) The Spring Mario is nice too, in a strange way.

I was asked by Koizumi-san, the director, to make a Mario that wouldn't stop jumping.

We thought about all sorts of ways he would jump until we settled on the current design.

It was really fun playing a regular course as Spring Mario. I think a part of that was because Spring Mario doesn’t move around the way you want him to.

I understand that feeling well. It’s similar to how in Kirby you can choose to clear a level using an ability that's not suited for that area.

That’s why during the early stages of development, we talked about being able to transform into any Mario that the player would like, whether it was Bee Mario or Spring Mario. However, we decided against it because it would break the game balance.

Of course, transforming into various forms has been in every Mario to date, but now it seems like the range of Mario’s transformations has expanded greatly with the addition of new forms like Boo Mario, and I think it's safe to say Super Mario Galaxy has the most transformations in the Mario series.
Who's responsible for this?! (laughs)

Well, I think the first idea came from Koizumi-san, the director. One of the female staff members was asked the question "What would you want Mario to transform into?", and she put up a note saying "I want a Bee Mario". Koizumi-san saw it and asked her with a big grin on his face, "Are you sure? It's a bee!" Then he continued with "We’ve gotta make a stage for Bee Mario!", and things started to take off from there! (laughs)

Just the one idea of Bee Mario affected the overall design of the game. But even though it ended up being more work for you, you all seem to be having so much fun just talking about it.

It’s really fun when you first see things like the Spring Mario moving around. When I first saw it, I actually burst out in laughter! But then I suddenly realised, "Wait, I'm the one that has to think of the stage design!"

(laughs)

I think the great fun the staff had while making Super Mario Galaxy really shows in the game.

We made the game by discussing all of our ideas together. When a great idea for a new character came up, the map team then discussed with the rest of the team about how they should incorporate it to make it the most fun. So, I think we had really good teamwork. Although my first reaction was "What's this supposed to be?” when the idea of Boo Mario first came up, we continued to talk about it and things moved ahead to the point where we decided to make a haunted house like in Luigi's Mansion⁵. Thinking of the stage design for this was a really fun experience.

It really works as an advantage to have the game take place in space, as it's flexible enough to accommodate a wide range of ideas. I mean, as long as each of the planets are different, you can do whatever you want.

Right, so it's OK to have a planet in a shape of an apple. You can't have a planet that looks like an apple in Zelda!

(laughs)

Even when there's Yoshi's head floating around in space, it doesn't feel out of place at all.

I did get worried if it was really OK to have Yoshi's head appear as a planet, so I asked Miyamoto-san. He simply replied "OK"! (laughs)

I think Miyamoto-san must have had quite an influence on this project. Did any of the things he did frustrate you as developers?

Actually, there is one... During the early stages of development, Mario was able to collect coins surrounding him by spinning. However, Miyamoto-san didn't agree with this idea, and said "It's not right unless Mario runs into the coins to collect them", so that became the way it is in the final game. But, at that time, I felt so frustrated!

(laugh)

From our initial point of view, Mario games are about collecting lots of coins. In the early stages of development, we actually placed lots of coins all over the map. But then Miyamoto-san told us it was pointless to have all these coins just lying around... So we changed the coins to be recovery items, limited the amount that appear in-game, and made it so that the only thing you would be collecting in the game was Star Bits. When we did that, the game balance tightened up quite a bit. It was when I saw how he worked that I realised how great Miyamoto-san was.

With the inclusion of the Co-Star mode and the ability to transform into Bee Mario, Super Mario Galaxy was made so that it would be easy for beginners to get into the game. But because of these features, I'm thinking that quite a few of our customers misunderstand the game, thinking that this Mario isn’t suited for mid-level and expert gamers like themselves. But I'm sure that those of you who have developed it are thinking "No! That's not the case!" (laughs)

That's something I really would like to emphasise. The sheer volume of this game is tremendous. There are also many different ways you can enjoy playing the game, and if you get deep enough into it, you’ll find stages experts will find challenging - precisely because they’re experts. If someone who is good at video games plays one of the normal levels, they can try defeating the enemy in a very cool manner.

So good that you want to record and show it off! (laughs)

I actually like the gym-style challenge mentality myself! (laughs) So of course, I put things in the game that I’d have wanted to see in there if I were the player.

It’s like how with cars, for example, anyone can easily drive an automatic at first, but as you get used to driving, you can switch to a car with manual transmission and get even more control over how you drive. In this sense, the game can really be enjoyed by everyone from beginners to experts, and the game was made with this in mind.

You might say that’s something of a camouflage...

That's quite a way to put it! (laughs)
So you're saying that it's wearing sheep’s clothing on the outside, but on the inside it’s full of difficult, gym-style challenges?

But if we just made it hard, I think even the experts would be backing away from the game. It's not ascetic training, after all! (laughs) I think the difficulty level has been balanced so that it still feels good playing the game.

In the areas that I was responsible for, there are stages called EX stages. It doesn't take long to play through them, but they’re painfully hard. Even the best of the best will be sighing in relief once they get through them.

So even experts will end up with sweaty palms in that area.

That must be a part of the camouflage! (laughs)

Still, you don't have to clear them to move on in the game.

Now, to wrap things up, please say a few words to our players looking forward to the game's release.

(Takes a note out of his pocket)
Actually, the staff who weren’t able to appear in this interview gave me a message that they’d really like me to pass on. Do you mind?

(laughs)

Let's see... “We’d really like you to try the Star Ball stages.”

Star Ball is a game that uses the tilt sensor, and was originally one of the ways we experimented with to control Mario. However, it turned out to be a lot of fun when we played it with a ball instead of Mario. It was so good that we put it in the game.

Continuing on... “There are also stages in a style similar to pseudo-2D, and when you get to these stages, you’ll feel like you've come home. We developed the sound so that you can play along with its rhythm, so please enjoy this part.” That’s it for the staff note. (laughs)

I think Super Mario Galaxy turned out to be a game that's full of variety. The difficulty has even been balanced so that people won’t think they can’t do it, and we’ve also made it so that we can respond to the people wondering why a certain character doesn’t appear in the game. (laughs) We’ve put our full effort into even the smallest of details, so we hope you'll have a lot of fun with it.

What I want to talk about is the Toad Brigade. When you travel around in space, you get lonely, don’t you? But throughout your journey, Toads will appear here and there to give you hints and cheer you on. I think it’ll come to feel like you’re journeying through space with the Toad Brigade on your way to rescue Princess Peach. There are also secret stages, and you'll find some pipes hidden in the most unexpected places. I'm sure you’ll have fun exploring the game world, so I hope the players will truly savour every last bit of the vast world of Super Mario Galaxy.

If they were to do that, it might take them an awful long time! (laughs)

Definitely. We’ve made a huge number of planets.

Everyone, thank you very much.
For the next interview, I’ll return to the Kyoto headquarters, where I’ll be interviewing the rest of the development staff.